Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. --Matthew 5:15-16

Monday, August 07, 2006

Kyle's Post on Mormonism

I thought Kyle's post on Mormonism was very good and he said I can post it as a blog entry. So now since we're all back, we can discuss this in more detail if you'd like. There are a couple things I'll add in the comments section of this entry.
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Berry suggested I put this on here... we should start a post about this subject: Christianity vs. Mormonism
I sent this reply to someone asking the difference between Christianity and Mormonism and is thinking of converting from the former to the latter. Enjoy.

Oooh... well, the Mormon religion is, at face value, Christianity. However, strong Cristians everywhere, including myself, see obvious major differences between the two. Even Mormons claim to be Christians when they really are not... Here's why:

Both Christians and Mormons believe the Holy Bible to be the inspired word of God, both Old and New Testaments. They both believe a man named "Jesus" came down to earth to die on the cross and save people from sin. They also believe that doing good deeds and not sinning is central to faith. From there, similarities start to fade.

Christians believe that Jesus is one with God. There's something called the trinity... (I'm sure you've heard of some of this, so just bear with me. =P) God is of three parts, yet all in one: The Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. Mormonism teaches that these three are separate beings and that Jesus is a separate God from God the Father. I believe this directly contradicts The Bible because in 1 Timothy 2, The Bible says "5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus." [NLT]. This kinda brings me to my next point.

There is only one Bible, but there are many translations of it. The Bible was written in several languages including Greek and Hebrew. If you ask anyone who speaks Hebrew, they will tell you that it translations from it into English vary. For example, one hebrew word can translate into land, continent, or planet. It's broad, but the general meanings of the words are kept. Despite this fact, Mormons claim the only "legitimate" translation of The Bible is the King James Version. This is because it was the first officially canonized english translation of the Catholic church in the 1600s and it was the translation Joseph Smith, the founder of the religion, studied. There is, however, no reason to believe any other standard translation is flawed. I prefer the New Living Translation, and my church uses The Message or the New International Version. In fact, many copies of The Bible have been printed with two or three translations side by side so one can gather a better understanding of the original meaning of the scripture.

Speaking of scripture, the Latter Day Saints have many other doctrines besides The Bible. The most notable is The Book of Mormon. This volume tells that Jesus came back to earth, more specifically the americas, and preached the same messages he did in the middle east to the native americans. There are several things, though, that make The Book of Mormon suspicious.

1) The Bible was written by over 60 different people over the course of hundreds of years. God did not give his word directly to the authors, but the authors had a strong relationship with God, and they based their writings off of that. To show that God did, in fact, inspire all of these authors, there are no major inconsistancies within The Bible, both New and Old testament. On the contrary, The Book of Mormon was presented on gold tablets by the angel Nephi to Joseph Smith while he was praying. It was writtin in Egyptian symbols. Joseph translated the entire scripture and published the book. Strangely, the tablets have not been seen by anyone but Smith - ever. The Bible can be found on 1st through 3rd copies of the originals, if not the originals themselves.

2) Entire chapters of The Book of Mormon appear to be copied directly out of the KJV of The Bible. I stumbled upon this randomly... luck, I guess. =P Take a look at Matthew Ch. 7 and 3 Nephi Ch. 14. [Both links are to scripture on the LDS.org website for consistancy.] Almost every verse is word for word exactly the same. The question I asked is this: How can a book that was buried in 21 A.D. [BoM] have the exact same dialect as a translation that was made in the 1600s A.D.? The answer I've always recieved was, "Jesus taught the same things in both The Bible and in the Book of Mormon." However, the chances of that occurring, especially when the two scriptures are being translated by two different people/groups of people from different time periods and from two very different original languages, are virtually impossible. There were also several major changes made to the BoM after its initial publication. I'm not sure of the exact details on these changes, but changing "holy word" seems a bit strange, especially since "Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

3) The Book of Mormon has things that contradict The Bible directly. For example, The Bible consistantly says that Jesus was born in Bethlahem, whilein the BoM says he was born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). Other beliefs (to which I don't know the references to right now) contradict what Jesus taught. One being baptism of the dead. Mormons believe that if they baptize (in a way, I'm not sure how) a dead non-Mormon, they can have a second chance at believing in the religion before they enter heaven. (The Heavens are different too, btw. I'll save that for another time. =P) This belief defeats the purpose of beliving in a particular religion while on earth in the first place. I thought about the idea for a while, then came to this conclusion. If I die and, being a Christian, come before Heaven and am told that Mormonism is the way, there's no way I'm not going to believe it. It's obvious at that point! In theory, everyone who has died, regardless of religion, will choose to go to the Mormon heaven. It makes no sense.

This is getting kinda long since I'm spilling everything I know about everything... =P I'll say this last part. ;]

Jesus taught that the only way to get to heaven is through [belief in] him. A story was told where a man died and came before the judgement seat. He had done many charitable deeds, but he didn't truly believe in Jesus. God told him to leave his sight - he never knew him. The Mormons believe that doing good works and not sinning is central to going to heaven. This is simply not the case. They are basing that belief on the scripture that says "Faith without works is dead." The literal meaning of this verse contradicts everything else Jesus said about going to Heaven. The underlaying meaning, though, is that ones faith is not evident to others if one doesn't peform good deeds in the name of the Lord. One of our purposes on earth is to share our faith in God to others. "Spread the good news to all nations." Thus, that meaning fits. Mormons will tell you that the non-literal implication of that verse is simply wrong. They have no justification for it.

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10 Comments:

Blogger Heather R. said...

Also, speaking of #2 where entire chapters were copied from the KJV, you'll find that many chapters from Isaiah are copied word-for-word as if the author just had to give praises to God so he spends about 5 chapters quoting Isaiah, and it's amazing how the KJV translators got the EXACT SAME WORDING as Joseph Smith himself!

And about #1, JS claimed to have shown the plates to Oliver Cowdery (who was excommunicated by JS on April 12, 1838), David Whitmer (excommunicated on April 13, 1838), and Martin Harris (released from the "High Council" on Sept 3, 1837 for beating his wife and losing thousands of dollars somehow). Additionally, for the other 8 plates-witnesses (who signed their names to a separate testimony), they are members of only 2 families and one of those people was excommunicated on March 10, 1838. Also, I think it was Oliver Cowdery who recanted his testimony later on, claiming it may have been just a vision rather than actually seeing "real" golden plates.

8/08/2006 3:46 PM

 
Blogger Heather R. said...

Kyle: Yeah, you're totally right. You know what's also kinda interesting is that Mohammed claimed to get his revelation directly from Gabriel and he was the only one Gabriel spoke to... So basically Gabriel spoke, Mohammed wrote, and no other witnesses. It's sorta similar to Joseph Smith's story.

8/09/2006 9:28 PM

 
Blogger the-wonder-bucket said...

lol :P

I love how everythign proves the book of mormon to be completely wrong ^.^

i might not be on here for a while... most of you know that right after i got home from camp i washed all meh clothes n went back to california the next day... so here i am... in cali... with limited access to a computer. i trus tsoemone will catch me up on everything when i get back??

8/11/2006 11:32 AM

 
Blogger Heather R. said...

I was wondering where you were! (I forgot you mentioned you were going back to Cali) Glad you could chime in here for a sec!

8/11/2006 4:14 PM

 
Blogger Heather R. said...

GF, I'm glad that you're enjoying this blog. :) And I'm glad that you're learning too... that's the whole reason we have the blog here in the first place: to help us all be more equiped and ready for when we do talk with people who are not Christian, to help those others understand Christianity better, and to strengthen our faith even more!

So (and this goes for everyone, including me :) ) even if anyone doesn't know much about a topic we're discussing on here, post any questions you might have, even if it's regarding something you heard from your bestfriend's friend's boyfriend's aunt's pet's veterinarian! One of the best ways I learn about stuff is when a question, challenge, or "someone told me that ______" kind of thing.

The time when I learned the most about Christianity was when I had to defend my faith to Mormon missionaries and Jehovah's Witnesses (all in the same 2 months... I must have spent an average of 1-2 hours a day researching stuff!).

8/13/2006 12:49 AM

 
Blogger Heather R. said...

Oh, and I also realized one important thing about salvation: it all depends on who you put your trust in. Mormonism places it in works and Jesus (as a man only) died on the cross. JW's place it in Michael the Archangel (who was temporarily named "Jesus" while here on Earth). Christianity places it all on God: Jesus was God; God is the only one who can truly save.

Other elements to salvation include repentance from sin and putting God in the driver's seat of our lives. (basically, accepting Him as our Lord, Leader, and Savior of our lives)

8/13/2006 1:05 AM

 
Blogger Alma Allred said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/14/2006 8:11 AM

 
Blogger Heather R. said...

For everyone that might be reading this blog: this blog is intended as a discussion group for our youth group and leaders only. If you wish, you may discuss any issues with me privately via email at illuminatelv AT yahoo DOT com and I'd be happy to dialog with you about anything with which you might disagree. All Non-Cornerstone posts will be deleted. (This is also why I need to know all the identities of participants of this blog... which, at this current time, I do. Thank you all!)

Thank you for your understanding.

8/16/2006 2:24 PM

 
Blogger Heather R. said...

Just to post one quick thing that was brought to my attention: in the first pages of the BoM, there are two testimonies (one signed by 3 people Cowdery, Whitmer, & Harris and the other signed by 8: four Whitmers, one Page, and three Smiths). These people claimed to have seen the plates as well (the first presented by an angel, the second presented by Joseph Smith). There are a couple problems with these witnesses, however.

First, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and John Whitmer were excommunicated from the church by Joseph Smith in 1838 for various reasons and Martin Harris was released from the High Council in 1837. And I believe it was Oliver Cowdery who had changed his story regarding either the angelic visitation or touching the plates. It's also important to note that the people who signed their names to the Testimony of Eight Witnesses Document are from only 2 families whereas Jesus' disciples all came from various backgrounds and mostly different families except Peter and Andrew, and James and John. The people on the Testimony of Three Witnesses were either excommunicated or released from the High Council (for beating his wife and losing thousands of dollars).

So we have no good reason that these Witnesses actually saw the plates. I believe one or two recanted their testimonies under pressure. However, none of the apostles/disciples did in regards to the New Testiment.

8/16/2006 4:34 PM

 
Blogger Heather R. said...

Kyle, the bulk of what you wrote is good, but here are a few areas that can be fixed:

God is of three parts, yet all in one: The Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.
You're correct that Christianity attests that there is one God, not three Gods. However God doesn't consist of three parts like an egg does. People use the egg analogy to describe the trinity, but it's not quite accurate. The Father is fully God (not "part of God"), the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God. Here's a better way to look at it: it's one essence in three beings, but that one essence is fully manifest in each of the three. It's not one being in three beings either. (Many non-Christians think this is what we believe... they're wrong.) No physical 3-D representation here on Earth or in your mind can model it perfectly- but mentally we can grasp that the Son is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Later I'll write a post on the Trinity... though it's not a simple concept for people to grasp.

Mormons claim the only "legitimate" translation of The Bible is the King James Version.
The translation they primarily use is the KJV, and I've heard various reasons for this, but they're allowed to use other translations. However, all Mormon Missionaries I've met will use only the KJV thinking it's better because that's the main translation the LDS church uses. However, there are many other Mormons who use other translations as well.

Regarding your 1), the man who commented before pointed out that what you wrote suggests that Mormons belive only one person wrote all the books in the BoM. However, according to the books in the BoM, it's recorded that it was written by several authors. For example, in the beginning of Omni (in the BoM), it's written "Behold it came to pass that I, Omni, being commanded by my father, Jarom, that I should write somewhat upon these plates, to preserve our genealogy." There are a couple of things I can say about this that makes me doubt that these were really written by those particular people, but I'll save that for another time.

Also, we don't have any of the original books of the Bible anymore because paper, parchment, etc disintigrates. But we do have a significant paper trail, and because of that, textual analysts can determine with over 99% accuracy (like 99.3% or something) as to what was in the originals because of all the copies and carbon-dating we have. However, the BoM has no such paper trail... only the claim that the gold plates were presented and then taken away. Additionally, it is written in the BoM that the books were written in Reformed Egyptian, for which there is no archaeological evidence of there being such a thing except by only Joseph Smith's claim and one verse in the BoM (that I know of) mentions it.

Whew! Ok, I've written a lot. I hope this helps in a better understanding of things. There's one more thing I'll write about later: the baptism for the dead... why the LDS church does it, their rationale, and how Christians have responded to this.

8/18/2006 3:36 PM

 

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